Heat pump in basement?

[email protected] wrote:
> I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
> in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
> basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
> impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
> installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
> temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.

Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house. Not feasible at all.

In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).

--

On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
> > in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
> > basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
> > impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
> > installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
> > temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
>
> Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
> rest of the house. Not feasible at all.
>
> In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
> another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).
>
> --

I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
not work efficiently?
Richard

[email protected] wrote:
> On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
>>> in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
>>> basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
>>> impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
>>> installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
>>> temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
>> Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
>> rest of the house. Not feasible at all.
>>
>> In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
>> another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).
>>
>> --
>
> I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
> square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
> implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
> not work efficiently?

Of course...what's the volume of the living space you're trying to
heat/cool in comparison? On top of that, since the area is closed,
there's no where for the now heated/cooled air to replenish from so next
cycle you're starting from essentially the ending point of the last.

Every degree you change the temperature in the living area will have to
make a corresponding change in the temperature of an equal air volume
plus the efficiency factor--the old saying of "you can't beat Mother
Nature, the 2nd Law says you can't even break even" is still true.

It simply can not work...

--

On Jul 2, 10:36 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>> I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
> >>> in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
> >>> basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
> >>> impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
> >>> installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
> >>> temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
> >> Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
> >> rest of the house. Not feasible at all.
>
> >> In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
> >> another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).
>
> >> --
>
> > I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
> > square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
> > implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
> > not work efficiently?
>
> Of course...what's the volume of the living space you're trying to
> heat/cool in comparison? On top of that, since the area is closed,
> there's no where for the now heated/cooled air to replenish from so next
> cycle you're starting from essentially the ending point of the last.
>
> Every degree you change the temperature in the living area will have to
> make a corresponding change in the temperature of an equal air volume
> plus the efficiency factor--the old saying of "you can't beat Mother
> Nature, the 2nd Law says you can't even break even" is still true.
>
> It simply can not work...
I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
which they are in contact with is 55 degrees? or so, there would seem
to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
cold.. I will, however, consider what you have said.
Anyway, it was just a thought to try and save fossil fuels and money.
I should have pointed out that my house is very well insulated and we
keep things cool in the winter and supplement my gas furnace with
electric heaters. My total heating bill for last winter was less than
$600.(natural gas at $1.40/therm).
Richard

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1a584870-783e-4d50-ac9f-28b19c7c5bd5@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 2, 10:36 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>> > On Jul 2, 9:38 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> [email protected] wrote:
>> >>> I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
>> >>> in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
>> >>> basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
>> >>> impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
>> >>> installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
>> >>> temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
>> >> Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than
>> >> the
>> >> rest of the house. Not feasible at all.
>>
>> >> In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
>> >> another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the
>> >> best).
>>
>> >> --
>>
>> > I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
>> > square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
>> > implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
>> > not work efficiently?
>>
>> Of course...what's the volume of the living space you're trying to
>> heat/cool in comparison? On top of that, since the area is closed,
>> there's no where for the now heated/cooled air to replenish from so next
>> cycle you're starting from essentially the ending point of the last.
>>
>> Every degree you change the temperature in the living area will have to
>> make a corresponding change in the temperature of an equal air volume
>> plus the efficiency factor--the old saying of "you can't beat Mother
>> Nature, the 2nd Law says you can't even break even" is still true.
>>
>> It simply can not work...
> I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
> walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
> which they are in contact with is 55 degrees? or so, there would seem
> to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
> cold.. I will, however, consider what you have said.
> Anyway, it was just a thought to try and save fossil fuels and money.
> I should have pointed out that my house is very well insulated and we
> keep things cool in the winter and supplement my gas furnace with
> electric heaters. My total heating bill for last winter was less than
> $600.(natural gas at $1.40/therm).
> Richard
>
You got him to bit twice, be satisfied with that.

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 20:05:45 -0700 (PDT), "rgoldste@gmail.com"
<[email protected]> wrote Re Re: Heat pump in basement?:

>I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
>walls, they are concrete block with no insulation.

The replenishment heat from the walls won't be able to conduct from
the earth outside the walls fast enough to keep up with the heat pump.
The "heat" flows like this:

Earth (1) ==> Basement Walls (2) ==> Basement Air (3) ==> Heat Pump
(4)

Heat flow from (1) to (3) will be much slower than from (3) to (4).
The only way to compensate for that would be for the volume of (3) to
be much larger than the volume you are heating.

[email protected] wrote:
...

> I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
> walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
> which they are in contact with is 55 degrees? or so, there would seem
> to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
> cold.. I will, however, consider what you have said.

That's nice to assume but don't believe it'll be adequate. No estimate
of the size of house to heat and I'm assuming it's desirable to keep the
basement at something near a habitable condition.

If there is no restriction whatsoever on that, I it could manage to be a
contributor but would imo not be the economical use of the investment.
Of course, besides the size of the heat sink/source issue, the outdoor
unit would noisy if installed in the house.

The ground source, otoh, would be quite economical to operate.

--