Advice needed

Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>My DEQ2496 just shipped out today. I forgot it had a compressor on it.
>Originally I was going to run the w/l mic for the presenter through the
>mains and the w/l mic and choir mic (audience questions and input) through
>an aux for recording. The aux would have been Y'ed from mono to stereo.
>Now I am considering panning the w/l to one side and Y'ing that also and
>running one channel in the DEQ for the FOH and the aux through the other
>channel and using the compressor in both. I don't know how dynamic the
>speakers will be (several blocks being recorded) so the idea of a
>compressor to keep things from getting too wild on the FOH or recording
>seems to make sense. Your thoughts?

If you aren't SURE you need it, don't use it. The more stuff you put in
the signal path, the more chance there is for something to go wrong.

If you are recording to any modern digital format, there is probably no
reason to compress on recording, because you can do it in post with the
touch of a button.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 16 Jun 2008 19:54:22 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>>My DEQ2496 just shipped out today. I forgot it had a compressor on it.
>>Originally I was going to run the w/l mic for the presenter through the
>>mains and the w/l mic and choir mic (audience questions and input) through
>>an aux for recording. The aux would have been Y'ed from mono to stereo.
>>Now I am considering panning the w/l to one side and Y'ing that also and
>>running one channel in the DEQ for the FOH and the aux through the other
>>channel and using the compressor in both. I don't know how dynamic the
>>speakers will be (several blocks being recorded) so the idea of a
>>compressor to keep things from getting too wild on the FOH or recording
>>seems to make sense. Your thoughts?
>
> If you aren't SURE you need it, don't use it. The more stuff you put in
> the signal path, the more chance there is for something to go wrong.
>
> If you are recording to any modern digital format, there is probably no
> reason to compress on recording, because you can do it in post with the
> touch of a button.
> --scott

I basically agree, but you can't fix clipping. Compression on the FOH
would be limited to mainly keep from clipping. If I need to leave to help
out somewhere else and someone decides to play I don't want to clip either
FOH or the recording. Basically, I'm not sure I don't need it.

Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I basically agree, but you can't fix clipping. Compression on the FOH
>would be limited to mainly keep from clipping. If I need to leave to help
>out somewhere else and someone decides to play I don't want to clip either
>FOH or the recording. Basically, I'm not sure I don't need it.

A compressor cannot fix clipping. If your levels are high enough, you
can clip the input of the compressor just as easily as the input of the
converters. Just turn it down low enough that the PA guy's console
clips before your recorder does. That won't fix it either, but at least
it won't be _your_ fault.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 16 Jun 2008 21:43:08 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>I basically agree, but you can't fix clipping. Compression on the FOH
>>would be limited to mainly keep from clipping. If I need to leave to help
>>out somewhere else and someone decides to play I don't want to clip either
>>FOH or the recording. Basically, I'm not sure I don't need it.
>
> A compressor cannot fix clipping. If your levels are high enough, you
> can clip the input of the compressor just as easily as the input of the
> converters. Just turn it down low enough that the PA guy's console
> clips before your recorder does. That won't fix it either, but at least
> it won't be _your_ fault.
> --scott

What about the more likely problem, extreme dynamic range? When I speak in
similar situations I go from a normal speaking voice to yelling (my topic
is personal safety). Wouldn't a soft knee be a good idea in such cases?
This is my primary concern. Clipping the speakers is second. I will be
the console operator, but as the troubleshooter also I may have to leave at
times. I have no idea what the speakers will do, I never heard them
before. Of course, for the soft knee a compressor in the mic signal path
would be ideal, but that is later down the road.

Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 16 Jun 2008 21:43:08 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>I basically agree, but you can't fix clipping. Compression on the FOH
>>>would be limited to mainly keep from clipping. If I need to leave to help
>>>out somewhere else and someone decides to play I don't want to clip either
>>>FOH or the recording. Basically, I'm not sure I don't need it.
>>
>> A compressor cannot fix clipping. If your levels are high enough, you
>> can clip the input of the compressor just as easily as the input of the
>> converters. Just turn it down low enough that the PA guy's console
>> clips before your recorder does. That won't fix it either, but at least
>> it won't be _your_ fault.
>
>What about the more likely problem, extreme dynamic range? When I speak in
>similar situations I go from a normal speaking voice to yelling (my topic
>is personal safety). Wouldn't a soft knee be a good idea in such cases?
>This is my primary concern. Clipping the speakers is second. I will be
>the console operator, but as the troubleshooter also I may have to leave at
>times. I have no idea what the speakers will do, I never heard them
>before. Of course, for the soft knee a compressor in the mic signal path
>would be ideal, but that is later down the road.

In the digital world, you have an outrageous amount of dynamic range
available at the recorder. So you can compress things afterward, once
you get the recording made. This gives you a chance to fiddle around
with settings to avoid audible artifacts like the background noise pumping
and exaggerated P-popping. The noise floor on the recording is limited
by the mike preamps more than anything else, so doing the compression
before the recorder or after the recorder gives you the same results.

So you can turn the level way down so that yelling doesn't clip anything,
and bring the rest up in post, without the noise floor a huge issue.

It's sure a better world than when folks were using those Marantz cassette
decks for this kind of work, and living with the AGC pumping up and down
throughout the whole thing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 17 Jun 2008 10:39:22 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On 16 Jun 2008 21:43:08 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I basically agree, but you can't fix clipping. Compression on the FOH
>>>>would be limited to mainly keep from clipping. If I need to leave to help
>>>>out somewhere else and someone decides to play I don't want to clip either
>>>>FOH or the recording. Basically, I'm not sure I don't need it.
>>>
>>> A compressor cannot fix clipping. If your levels are high enough, you
>>> can clip the input of the compressor just as easily as the input of the
>>> converters. Just turn it down low enough that the PA guy's console
>>> clips before your recorder does. That won't fix it either, but at least
>>> it won't be _your_ fault.
>>
>>What about the more likely problem, extreme dynamic range? When I speak in
>>similar situations I go from a normal speaking voice to yelling (my topic
>>is personal safety). Wouldn't a soft knee be a good idea in such cases?
>>This is my primary concern. Clipping the speakers is second. I will be
>>the console operator, but as the troubleshooter also I may have to leave at
>>times. I have no idea what the speakers will do, I never heard them
>>before. Of course, for the soft knee a compressor in the mic signal path
>>would be ideal, but that is later down the road.
>
> In the digital world, you have an outrageous amount of dynamic range
> available at the recorder. So you can compress things afterward, once
> you get the recording made. This gives you a chance to fiddle around
> with settings to avoid audible artifacts like the background noise pumping
> and exaggerated P-popping. The noise floor on the recording is limited
> by the mike preamps more than anything else, so doing the compression
> before the recorder or after the recorder gives you the same results.
>

CD's are going directly from recorder to duplicator. There will be no
editing. Recordings on Friday. CD's available on Friday night and
Saturday morning. Right now we have over 300 people registered for the
conference and expect that many to sign up at the door. There are going to
be about 8-10 separate recordings available. I don't know that we have
anybody available to even edit if we wanted to. I have other duties before
and after the breakout sessions.

> So you can turn the level way down so that yelling doesn't clip anything,
> and bring the rest up in post, without the noise floor a huge issue.
>

And then the normal parts are too soft.

> It's sure a better world than when folks were using those Marantz cassette
> decks for this kind of work, and living with the AGC pumping up and down
> throughout the whole thing.

True, IF you have the time available to adjust afterwards. We don't.

Mike D.

Mike Dobony <[email protected]> wrote:
>> It's sure a better world than when folks were using those Marantz cassette
>> decks for this kind of work, and living with the AGC pumping up and down
>> throughout the whole thing.
>
>True, IF you have the time available to adjust afterwards. We don't.

If you're recording onto CF and then dumping the file to a CD on a PC,
the software on the PC should allow you to do that in the dumping process.
Once you get the parameters right, you just use the same batch command every
time.

Otherwise, try an RNC in super-nice mode, which combines a soft knee at
low levels with a harder one at higher levels.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."