For those still tempted by cassette

Professional audio recording and studio engineering, post #44,915
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Don Pearce
 2008-06-27 15:43:13
 For those still tempted by cassette
Just done a small job where I was forced to use an analogue cassette. I
used one of the best portable - the Sony Walkman Pro WM-D6C, but the
result sounded more unbalanced and missing top than I expected.

So, (OK you all know by now what I do) I measured it. I used a Cr02
tape, and tried it on all three bias settings to see what would happen.
The Cr02 setting was the best, but I was surprised at just how far off
the others were - didn't know there was such a difference.

I also recorded some silence to see how the noise was.

http://81.174.169.10/odds/cassette.gif

The three curves are orange Normal bias, green Cr02 bias and purple
Metal bias. Signal levels are identical 0dB (+4VU) white noise for all
three.

The pale blue is the noise.

Nobody is really using these things any more, are they?

d
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Arny Krueger
 2008-06-27 10:53:42
 Re: For those still tempted by cassette
"Don Pearce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Just done a small job where I was forced to use an
> analogue cassette. I used one of the best portable - the
> Sony Walkman Pro WM-D6C, but the result sounded more
> unbalanced and missing top than I expected.
> So, (OK you all know by now what I do) I measured it. I
> used a Cr02 tape, and tried it on all three bias settings
> to see what would happen. The Cr02 setting was the best,
> but I was surprised at just how far off the others were -
> didn't know there was such a difference.
> I also recorded some silence to see how the noise was.
>
> http://81.174.169.10/odds/cassette.gif

> The three curves are orange Normal bias, green Cr02 bias
> and purple Metal bias. Signal levels are identical 0dB
> (+4VU) white noise for all three.

I'm surprised that it is that good.

Too bad you didn't have proper samples of the three kinds of tape so you
could test it as it was designed to be used.

> The pale blue is the noise.

> Nobody is really using these things any more, are they?

No, but I owned one and enjoyed it very much "in the day". I loaned it to
my late son in the late 90s, and that was the last that I ever saw of it.
:-(
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Don Pearce
 2008-06-27 16:05:20
 Re: For those still tempted by cassette
Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Don Pearce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Just done a small job where I was forced to use an
>> analogue cassette. I used one of the best portable - the
>> Sony Walkman Pro WM-D6C, but the result sounded more
>> unbalanced and missing top than I expected.
>> So, (OK you all know by now what I do) I measured it. I
>> used a Cr02 tape, and tried it on all three bias settings
>> to see what would happen. The Cr02 setting was the best,
>> but I was surprised at just how far off the others were -
>> didn't know there was such a difference.
>> I also recorded some silence to see how the noise was.
>>
>> http://81.174.169.10/odds/cassette.gif
>
>> The three curves are orange Normal bias, green Cr02 bias
>> and purple Metal bias. Signal levels are identical 0dB
>> (+4VU) white noise for all three.
>
> I'm surprised that it is that good.
>

I wasn't expecting it to drop by 6dB from about 3kHz.


> Too bad you didn't have proper samples of the three kinds of tape so you
> could test it as it was designed to be used.
>
>> The pale blue is the noise.
>
>> Nobody is really using these things any more, are they?
>
> No, but I owned one and enjoyed it very much "in the day". I loaned it to
> my late son in the late 90s, and that was the last that I ever saw of it.
> :-(
>
>

And just to complete the picture, here is the effect of Dolby B and C
compared to normal recording.

http://81.174.169.10/odds/dolby.gif

That seems to work very convincingly.

d
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Scott Dorsey
 2008-06-27 11:21:48
 Re: For those still tempted by cassette
Don Pearce <[email protected]> wrote:
>Just done a small job where I was forced to use an analogue cassette. I
>used one of the best portable - the Sony Walkman Pro WM-D6C, but the
>result sounded more unbalanced and missing top than I expected.
>
>So, (OK you all know by now what I do) I measured it. I used a Cr02
>tape, and tried it on all three bias settings to see what would happen.
>The Cr02 setting was the best, but I was surprised at just how far off
>the others were - didn't know there was such a difference.

It's a complete and total difference. Not only that, if you actually
set the bias up for precisely the tape you are using, you will notice as
great an improvement.

The number one problem with cassettes is that nobody EVER has the machine
calibrated properly for the exact brand of tape they are using.

The number two problem is that the azimuth is always wrong.

>Nobody is really using these things any more, are they?

A surprising number of folks doing voice-grade applications are using
them. You can drive a cassette over with a truck and still be able to
recover good audio from it. I'd like to see you try THAT with a compact
flash card.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Don Pearce
 2008-06-27 16:27:33
 Re: For those still tempted by cassette
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Don Pearce <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Just done a small job where I was forced to use an analogue cassette. I
>> used one of the best portable - the Sony Walkman Pro WM-D6C, but the
>> result sounded more unbalanced and missing top than I expected.
>>
>> So, (OK you all know by now what I do) I measured it. I used a Cr02
>> tape, and tried it on all three bias settings to see what would happen.
>> The Cr02 setting was the best, but I was surprised at just how far off
>> the others were - didn't know there was such a difference.
>
> It's a complete and total difference. Not only that, if you actually
> set the bias up for precisely the tape you are using, you will notice as
> great an improvement.
>

Yes, I've got a Denon DRM-800A here that has adjustable bias. As it has
three heads it was always an easy job to set it flat before use. Two
samples of the same tape were different enough to need a change. It's a
long time since I've used it.

As for azimuth, of course if all you are doing is recording then playing
back an hour later, it is unlikely to be a problem. It doesn't really
matter if it is a bit off, provided it is the same both times.

> The number one problem with cassettes is that nobody EVER has the machine
> calibrated properly for the exact brand of tape they are using.
>
> The number two problem is that the azimuth is always wrong.
>
>> Nobody is really using these things any more, are they?
>
> A surprising number of folks doing voice-grade applications are using
> them. You can drive a cassette over with a truck and still be able to
> recover good audio from it. I'd like to see you try THAT with a compact
> flash card.

Actually, my money is on the compact flash in that situation.

d
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Peter A. Stoll
 2008-06-27 12:15:40
 Re: For those still tempted by cassette
Don Pearce <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> You can drive a cassette over with a truck and still be able
>> to recover good audio from it. I'd like to see you try THAT with a
>> compact flash card.
>
> Actually, my money is on the compact flash in that situation.
>
> d
I suspect Scott may mean that you are more easily able get audio off a tape
from a smashed cassette than from a smashed CF card, with which I agree.
But I agree with you that for a specific insult level of being rolled over,
I'd bet on the CF card being immediately useable when the cassette needs
tender loving repacking into a new shell.

I have a cassette and a CF card I'm willing to sacrifice to science, but
lack a truck. Would a rollover test using my car be of interest?
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Don Pearce
 2008-06-27 19:01:52
 Re: For those still tempted by cassette
Peter A. Stoll wrote:
> Don Pearce <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> You can drive a cassette over with a truck and still be able
>>> to recover good audio from it. I'd like to see you try THAT with a
>>> compact flash card.
>> Actually, my money is on the compact flash in that situation.
>>
>> d
> I suspect Scott may mean that you are more easily able get audio off a tape
> from a smashed cassette than from a smashed CF card, with which I agree.
> But I agree with you that for a specific insult level of being rolled over,
> I'd bet on the CF card being immediately useable when the cassette needs
> tender loving repacking into a new shell.
>
> I have a cassette and a CF card I'm willing to sacrifice to science, but
> lack a truck. Would a rollover test using my car be of interest?
>

A great deal depends on the road surface. If it is nice and smooth, the
card will take no damage but the cassette case will be crushed. If the
surface is rough and the card happens to be lying on a lump, it tooo
will be wrecked. At that point I would put money on the cassette being
recoverable, and the card not.

d