Need Advice on Software/Hardware for Particular Purpose

Professional audio recording and studio engineering, post #45,928
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 blackburst@aol.com
 2008-07-09 10:45:44
 Need Advice on Software/Hardware for Particular Purpose
What I need is audio software/hardware which will allow me to take
discrete tracks from several 4-track tapes and (re)synchronize them,
in terms of both time and pitch, (to make "new" multitrack masters
with all discrete tracks).

HOW I USED TO RECORD: In the 70s, I had a Teac 2340 and a friend had a
Dokorder 4-track (7140, as I recall). Typically, I would record
instruments or voices on each of the tracks of the Teac, filling all 4
tracks. Then, I would mix down from the Teac to tracks 1 and 2 of
another tape on the Dokorder.

I would then put that second tape on the Teac, and record additional
instruments/voices on tracks 3 and 4. Then, I would again mix down
from the Teac (this tape containing a stereo premix on 1 and 2, and
discrete tracks on 3 and 4) to tracks 1 and 2 of a third tape on the
Dokorder.

I would again put this third tape back on the Teac and add additional
instruments/voices to the vacant tracks 3 and 4. It was usually at
this stage that I mixed to a stereo master.

THE PROBLEM: Considering that they were recorded at 7 1/2 ips on 1/4"
tape, and most of the instruments/voices were down a generation or
two, the tapes sound surprisingly good. The stereo masters play fairly
well in stereo; but when they're collapsed to mono, there is some
serious phase cancellation of the premixed portions. I deduce that the
head alignment differed between the Teac and the Dokorder! This would
affect ONLY the premixed portions, not the discrete tracks.

So I tried to go back to the original discrete tapes and dub all the
discrete tracks onto a Tascam 2488, but trying to synchronize them "on
the fly." Then I noticed another problem: Time and pitch variations!
Now, I ALSO deduce that the Teac and Dokorder ran at slightly
different speeds.

THE BOTTOM LINE: The discrete portions of these tapes ARE
theoretically synchronizable, since they all derive from the same
take. But some of them will need to be adjusted as to pitch and time.
(I KNOW pitch and time can now be adjusted separately, but they will
have to be done in conjunction with each other, as the degree "out of
time and pitch" should be proportional to each other.) By the way, I
have close to 100 songs that I would like to re-synchronize.

So, I'm looking for a program and hardware well-suited to:
-taking up to 4 line inputs at a time
-allowing a total of between 6-14 tracks
-lining up the tracks to start at the same time
-and, by adjusting speed (and pitch), to end at the same time
-and possibly be able to add a new instrument or voice or two

I would then like to do a normal mixdown with eq, panning and a few
effects. And IF POSSIBLE, I'd like to make discrete copies of the new
new multitrack masters onto tape, which would require up to about 14
discrete outputs. (I can use a friend's 16-track analog machine.)

What is the best setup for this? Software, hardware. Sure, I like to
keep the cost as low as possible.
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Richard Crowley
 2008-07-09 11:59:32
 Re: Need Advice on Software/Hardware for Particular Purpose
<[email protected]> wrote ...
> What I need is audio software/hardware which will allow me to take
> discrete tracks from several 4-track tapes and (re)synchronize them,
> in terms of both time and pitch, (to make "new" multitrack masters
> with all discrete tracks).
...
> So I tried to go back to the original discrete tapes and dub all the
> discrete tracks onto a Tascam 2488, but trying to synchronize them "on
> the fly." Then I noticed another problem: Time and pitch variations!
> Now, I ALSO deduce that the Teac and Dokorder ran at slightly
> different speeds.
>
> THE BOTTOM LINE: The discrete portions of these tapes ARE
> theoretically synchronizable, since they all derive from the same
> take. But some of them will need to be adjusted as to pitch and time.
> (I KNOW pitch and time can now be adjusted separately, but they will
> have to be done in conjunction with each other, as the degree "out of
> time and pitch" should be proportional to each other.) By the way, I
> have close to 100 songs that I would like to re-synchronize.
>
> So, I'm looking for a program and hardware well-suited to:
> -taking up to 4 line inputs at a time

There are many audio interface products that will take 4 or 6 or
8 or 16 or 24 tracks.

> -allowing a total of between 6-14 tracks

Most of the "usual suspects" will handle multi-track
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_editor

> -lining up the tracks to start at the same time

That is a manual function. Most audio NLE apps allow you to
"slide" a track back and forth to sync with other tracks.

> -and, by adjusting speed (and pitch), to end at the same time
> -and possibly be able to add a new instrument or voice or two

You would certainly want to select an audio NLE application with
the time/pitch adjustment capabilities you want. I use Adobe
Audition and it certainly has everything you are asking for.

> I would then like to do a normal mixdown with eq, panning and a few
> effects. And IF POSSIBLE, I'd like to make discrete copies of the new
> new multitrack masters onto tape, which would require up to about 14
> discrete outputs. (I can use a friend's 16-track analog machine.)

One has to wonder why you want to write this all back out to analog
tape when the medium is lingering at death's door now. Try not to get
run over by the hordes of people going the other direction.

> What is the best setup for this? Software, hardware. Sure, I like to
> keep the cost as low as possible.

You could start by telling us what computer you are starting with
and whether you are including a new computer system in this project?
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 blackburst@aol.com
 2008-07-09 12:18:56
 Re: Need Advice on Software/Hardware for Particular Purpose
On Jul 9, 2:59 pm, "Richard Crowley" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > I would then like to do a normal mixdown with eq, panning and a few
> > effects. And IF POSSIBLE, I'd like to make discrete copies of the new
> > new multitrack masters onto tape, which would require up to about 14
> > discrete outputs. (I can use a friend's 16-track analog machine.)
>
> One has to wonder why you want to write this all back out to analog
> tape when the medium is lingering at death's door now.  Try not to get
> run over by the hordes of people going the other direction.

I have a friend who is a major player in the computer biz, who insists
to me: Don't ever store something irreplacable (audio or video) solely
on a hard drive. Do some king of backup. I'm not sure why he says
this, but he certainly knows computers.

>
> > What is the best setup for this? Software, hardware. Sure, I like to
> > keep the cost as low as possible.
>
> You could start by telling us what computer you are starting with
> and whether you are including a new computer system in this project?-

Probably from scratch. My home computer is contaminated by kids and
Internet. I don't want to mess with my work NLEs (video)
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Richard Crowley
 2008-07-09 12:26:49
 Re: Need Advice on Software/Hardware for Particular Purpose
<[email protected]> wrote ...
> "Richard Crowley" wrote:
> > One has to wonder why you want to write this all back out to analog
> > tape when the medium is lingering at death's door now. Try not to get
> > run over by the hordes of people going the other direction.
>
> I have a friend who is a major player in the computer biz, who insists
> to me: Don't ever store something irreplacable (audio or video) solely
> on a hard drive. Do some king of backup. I'm not sure why he says
> this, but he certainly knows computers.

Analog tape is NOT a suitable "backup" or "archive" for audio data.
There are a wide variety of backup options for any kind of computer
data. Audio files are just annother kind of compuer data.

> Probably from scratch. My home computer is contaminated by kids
> and Internet. I don't want to mess with my work NLEs (video)

I regularly do both audio and video NLE. I keep separate systems
for audio and for video work.
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 hank alrich
 2008-07-10 00:54:54
 Re: Need Advice on Software/Hardware for Particular Purpose
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

> Don't ever store something irreplacable (audio or video) solely
> on a hard drive.

Right. Store it on three hard drives and keep one of them somewhere
else. Exercise them at some designated interval. Replace them as
necessary or as scheduled.

If I even halfway grasp some implications of MTBF I understand that any
given hard drive might fail in minutes or last several human life-times,
and I don't get to pick.

Analog tape may or may not provide more reliable long term access. In
parallel one would have the best of both worlds, and an alternative if
the worst of either world showed up.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Scott Dorsey
 2008-07-09 15:02:23
 Re: Need Advice on Software/Hardware for Particular Purpose
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>What I need is audio software/hardware which will allow me to take
>discrete tracks from several 4-track tapes and (re)synchronize them,
>in terms of both time and pitch, (to make "new" multitrack masters
>with all discrete tracks).

Any DAW system should allow you to do this. You dub the tapes to the
workstation, then stretch or shrink individual tracks to fit.
>
>HOW I USED TO RECORD: In the 70s, I had a Teac 2340 and a friend had a
>Dokorder 4-track (7140, as I recall). Typically, I would record
>instruments or voices on each of the tracks of the Teac, filling all 4
>tracks. Then, I would mix down from the Teac to tracks 1 and 2 of
>another tape on the Dokorder.
>
>I would then put that second tape on the Teac, and record additional
>instruments/voices on tracks 3 and 4. Then, I would again mix down
>from the Teac (this tape containing a stereo premix on 1 and 2, and
>discrete tracks on 3 and 4) to tracks 1 and 2 of a third tape on the
>Dokorder.
>
>I would again put this third tape back on the Teac and add additional
>instruments/voices to the vacant tracks 3 and 4. It was usually at
>this stage that I mixed to a stereo master.

This production method is called ping-ponging and it was very common back
in the days when folks had limited track counts. As you probably noticed,
it's very important to lay your arrangements out so that the tracks that
least need detail are recorded first.

>THE PROBLEM: Considering that they were recorded at 7 1/2 ips on 1/4"
>tape, and most of the instruments/voices were down a generation or
>two, the tapes sound surprisingly good. The stereo masters play fairly
>well in stereo; but when they're collapsed to mono, there is some
>serious phase cancellation of the premixed portions. I deduce that the
>head alignment differed between the Teac and the Dokorder! This would
>affect ONLY the premixed portions, not the discrete tracks.

Yes, this is not surprising at all. What surprises me is that you could
actually get a Dokorder to run for a full reel before breaking down.
Also, note that on the Dokorder machines, the head gaps were often not
parallel, so when you play them back you can set the azimuth right for one
track but not necessarily for all of them.

>So I tried to go back to the original discrete tapes and dub all the
>discrete tracks onto a Tascam 2488, but trying to synchronize them "on
>the fly." Then I noticed another problem: Time and pitch variations!
>Now, I ALSO deduce that the Teac and Dokorder ran at slightly
>different speeds.

This also doesn't surprise me a bit.

>THE BOTTOM LINE: The discrete portions of these tapes ARE
>theoretically synchronizable, since they all derive from the same
>take. But some of them will need to be adjusted as to pitch and time.
>(I KNOW pitch and time can now be adjusted separately, but they will
>have to be done in conjunction with each other, as the degree "out of
>time and pitch" should be proportional to each other.) By the way, I
>have close to 100 songs that I would like to re-synchronize.

100 songs is an awful lot of work, but you can do it. You're going to have
to be doing it by hand and by ear, though. And you are going to have to
spend a lot of time playing back the original tapes and making sure you get
the azimuth correct each time.

>So, I'm looking for a program and hardware well-suited to:
>-taking up to 4 line inputs at a time
>-allowing a total of between 6-14 tracks
>-lining up the tracks to start at the same time
>-and, by adjusting speed (and pitch), to end at the same time
>-and possibly be able to add a new instrument or voice or two

I think whatever DAW software you have will be fine, and you should
recognize that the DAW work is going to be the easy part. The hard part
is getting all of the individual tapes onto the DAW, and doing it with
the azimuth as close as possible to correct. Also, if your project is
anything like the others I have seen, you're going to find masters and
submasters that are missing. Identifying all the submasters that went with
each song and labelling them properly is the hardest part.

>What is the best setup for this? Software, hardware. Sure, I like to
>keep the cost as low as possible.

Pro Tools is fine. Get a nice tape machine.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."