Tube swap in GT Brick

Professional audio recording and studio engineering, post #44,643
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 griesgraber@mindspring.com
 2008-06-24 17:01:40
 Tube swap in GT Brick
Hello all,

I run a small project studio and have a client who's looking for a
"warm vintage" vocal sound. The core of my rig are two Grace pres -
an 801 and a 201 through Lynx Aurora converters into Logic. I also
use a Toft ATB24 console, but have found the Grace's to be so superior
that I seldom track with the Toft Pres. I also have a GT Brick
sitting around.

The client is a female singer songwriter with a self-described
"whiskey voice." The arrangement is solo voice, acoustic guitar, and
clean electric guitar. After some initial tracking the client told me
that she's seeking more "vintage" sound for her voice, which I take to
mean a colored, warm sound with a tamed top end and a round low end.
I found the tracks that we did with the Grace (using a Gefell UMT70s)
to be exquisite in their detail, but I think the client maybe wants
something a little less honest.

I tried an AB test with the Grace and the Brick using the Gefell and
doing the vocals myself. The Brick is pleasant, but very different,
of course. What I am wondering, is if I want to take this a step
further, do those of you with experience think I will hear a
meaningful difference if I swap out the stock Groove Tubes 12AX7 and
12AT7 for NOS Telefunkens or RCAs or something? It occurs to me that
GT may develop their products with their own tubes in mind - and thus
their gear may sound best with their own tubes - but I am also aware
that some think that the build quality of old tubes was far superior.
Before I drop $50 and wait a week or two to order vintage tubes, I'm
curious if anyone has experience with this sort of thing, or even this
specific preamp (the Brick) using NOS tubes.

Thanks!
Steve
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Scott Dorsey
 2008-06-24 20:13:53
 Re: Tube swap in GT Brick
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>The client is a female singer songwriter with a self-described
>"whiskey voice." The arrangement is solo voice, acoustic guitar, and
>clean electric guitar. After some initial tracking the client told me
>that she's seeking more "vintage" sound for her voice, which I take to
>mean a colored, warm sound with a tamed top end and a round low end.
>I found the tracks that we did with the Grace (using a Gefell UMT70s)
>to be exquisite in their detail, but I think the client maybe wants
>something a little less honest.

Try recording on Ampex 461 and hitting the crap out of it. Or try the
Opamp Labs preamps. The Opamp Labs boxes are typical of early 1970s
preamps.... crappy Triad input transformer, three transistor hybrid
op-amp, then a push-pull drive stage. They sound very typical of early
seventies stuff. I think the preamp they sell is around $100 or you
can buy the octal modules and make your own for less. It's the same
stuff they sold in 1975.

>I tried an AB test with the Grace and the Brick using the Gefell and
>doing the vocals myself. The Brick is pleasant, but very different,
>of course. What I am wondering, is if I want to take this a step
>further, do those of you with experience think I will hear a
>meaningful difference if I swap out the stock Groove Tubes 12AX7 and
>12AT7 for NOS Telefunkens or RCAs or something? It occurs to me that
>GT may develop their products with their own tubes in mind - and thus
>their gear may sound best with their own tubes - but I am also aware
>that some think that the build quality of old tubes was far superior.
>Before I drop $50 and wait a week or two to order vintage tubes, I'm
>curious if anyone has experience with this sort of thing, or even this
>specific preamp (the Brick) using NOS tubes.

It will change the sound some, but it'll be a subtle change. That box
is designed with very clean electronics; most of the actual coloration
comes from the transformers. You can stick some additional transformers
in there.

Oh yeah... and try a Shure M67. The worst transformers ever made are in those
things, and they should be a $10 hamfest item. Very typical early seventies
sound... very distinctive but you have heard it on a lot of things.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Mike Rivers
 2008-06-25 01:16:18
 Re: Tube swap in GT Brick
[email protected] wrote:

> The client is a female singer songwriter with a self-described
> "whiskey voice." The arrangement is solo voice, acoustic guitar, and
> clean electric guitar. After some initial tracking the client told me
> that she's seeking more "vintage" sound for her voice, which I take to
> mean a colored, warm sound with a tamed top end and a round low end.

So, instead of all that high end stuff, did you try using the preamps in
the ATB console? You don't want detail, you want a little mush. And
maybe you need a different mic. Try an RE20 or a Beyer M160 since you
probably can't easily get your hands on a 77DX.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me here:
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
([email protected])
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Paul Stamler
 2008-06-25 03:32:32
 Re: Tube swap in GT Brick
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7ae42b29-716b-46cf-a969-4836df9a300d@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>
> I tried an AB test with the Grace and the Brick using the Gefell and
> doing the vocals myself. The Brick is pleasant, but very different,
> of course. What I am wondering, is if I want to take this a step
> further, do those of you with experience think I will hear a
> meaningful difference if I swap out the stock Groove Tubes 12AX7 and
> 12AT7 for NOS Telefunkens or RCAs or something? It occurs to me that
> GT may develop their products with their own tubes in mind - and thus
> their gear may sound best with their own tubes - but I am also aware
> that some think that the build quality of old tubes was far superior.
> Before I drop $50 and wait a week or two to order vintage tubes, I'm
> curious if anyone has experience with this sort of thing, or even this
> specific preamp (the Brick) using NOS tubes.

It will probably change the sound of the Brick, but whether you'll prefer
the new sound or the old sound is, frankly, anybody's guess.

The Brick, to my ears, is an okay preamp, but it's limited by a low input
impedance (great for SM57s, not so great for most condenser mics) and
dubious transformers. Where it shines, though, is as a DI; it's one of the
best sounding I've heard.

Peace,
Paul
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Ty Ford
 2008-06-25 08:10:11
 Re: Tube swap in GT Brick
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:01:40 -0400, [email protected] wrote
(in article
<[email protected]>):

> Hello all,
>
> I run a small project studio and have a client who's looking for a
> "warm vintage" vocal sound. The core of my rig are two Grace pres -
> an 801 and a 201 through Lynx Aurora converters into Logic. I also
> use a Toft ATB24 console, but have found the Grace's to be so superior
> that I seldom track with the Toft Pres. I also have a GT Brick
> sitting around.
>
> The client is a female singer songwriter with a self-described
> "whiskey voice." The arrangement is solo voice, acoustic guitar, and
> clean electric guitar. After some initial tracking the client told me
> that she's seeking more "vintage" sound for her voice, which I take to
> mean a colored, warm sound with a tamed top end and a round low end.
> I found the tracks that we did with the Grace (using a Gefell UMT70s)
> to be exquisite in their detail, but I think the client maybe wants
> something a little less honest.
>
> I tried an AB test with the Grace and the Brick using the Gefell and
> doing the vocals myself. The Brick is pleasant, but very different,
> of course. What I am wondering, is if I want to take this a step
> further, do those of you with experience think I will hear a
> meaningful difference if I swap out the stock Groove Tubes 12AX7 and
> 12AT7 for NOS Telefunkens or RCAs or something? It occurs to me that
> GT may develop their products with their own tubes in mind - and thus
> their gear may sound best with their own tubes - but I am also aware
> that some think that the build quality of old tubes was far superior.
> Before I drop $50 and wait a week or two to order vintage tubes, I'm
> curious if anyone has experience with this sort of thing, or even this
> specific preamp (the Brick) using NOS tubes.
>
> Thanks!
> Steve
>

I have been recording with an AEA R84 with AEA TRP preamp recently.

You might want to try that. It sounds better than any ribbon mic I've used;
quieter, more top end than other ribbons, but nicely thick.

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 griesgraber@mindspring.com
 2008-06-25 11:41:49
 Re: Tube swap in GT Brick
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Scott, I will pick up a M67 -
can't go wrong for $10. Whether or not it works for her vocals, it's
always good to have some lo-fi gear on hand.

Mike, I'll also try an RE-20 through the Brick. Unfortunately, I
don't own or have easy access to an M160 or old RCA mic. I tried
using the Toft pres and decided that what they lack does not make for
an interesting sound - it just sounds lacking.

Paul, thanks for the tip on the impedance on the Brick - I'll
experiment with using dynamic mics instead of condensers.

Ty, thanks for the tips on the AEA stuff - unfortunately, their stuff
is out of my budget right now, but I'll look forward to hearing them
in the future.

Best,
Steve



On Jun 25, 8:10 am, Ty Ford <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:01:40 -0400, [email protected] wrote
> (in article
> <[email protected]>):
>
>
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > I run a small project studio and have a client who's looking for a
> > "warm vintage" vocal sound.  The core of my rig are two Grace pres -
> > an 801 and a 201 through Lynx Aurora converters into Logic.  I also
> > use a Toft ATB24 console, but have found the Grace's to be so superior
> > that I seldom track with the Toft Pres.  I also have a GT Brick
> > sitting around.
>
> > The client is a female singer songwriter with a self-described
> > "whiskey voice."  The arrangement is solo voice, acoustic guitar, and
> > clean electric guitar.  After some initial tracking the client told me
> > that she's seeking more "vintage" sound for her voice, which I take to
> > mean a colored, warm sound with a tamed top end and a round low end.
> > I found the tracks that we did with the Grace (using a Gefell UMT70s)
> > to be exquisite in their detail, but I think the client maybe wants
> > something a little less honest.
>
> > I tried an AB test with the Grace and the Brick using the Gefell and
> > doing the vocals myself.  The Brick is pleasant, but very different,
> > of course.  What I am wondering, is if I want to take this a step
> > further, do those of you with experience think I will hear a
> > meaningful difference if I swap out the stock Groove Tubes 12AX7 and
> > 12AT7 for NOS Telefunkens or RCAs or something?  It occurs to me that
> > GT may develop their products with their own tubes in mind - and thus
> > their gear may sound best with their own tubes -  but I am also aware
> > that some think that the build quality of old tubes was far superior.
> > Before I drop $50 and wait a week or two to order vintage tubes, I'm
> > curious if anyone has experience with this sort of thing, or even this
> > specific preamp (the Brick) using NOS tubes.
>
> > Thanks!
> > Steve
>
> I have been recording with an AEA R84 with AEA TRP preamp recently.
>
> You might want to try that. It sounds better than any ribbon mic I've used;
> quieter, more top end than other ribbons, but  nicely thick.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford
>
> --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
> Acting and Voiceover Demoshttp://www.tyford.com
> Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU