Power steering / engine oil pumps use for waste oil.

Technical aspects of automobiles, et. al., post #19,399
George
-Steve
--George
---Scott Dorsey
----George
-----dennnischu@gmail.com
------Mortimer
------George
-----HLS
------George
-------Don Byrer
--------George
---------phaeton
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 George
 2008-05-21 07:46:02
 Power steering / engine oil pumps use for waste oil.
Having owned and maitained about 20, mostly GM cars in the 70 - 90 era
I have a lot of old power steering and engine oil pumps. Now I need
to pump waste vegetable oil through a de-watering and particulate (3
micron) filter to a storage tank. I have looked at the price of a
commercial item and am horrified. It needs quite a small flow at
about 50 psi.

I have looked at engine oil pumps and they have a pressure relief
valve that just releases into the sump. I was thinking of putting a
much heavier spring in so it will not operate, but the PS pumps do not
have this problem.

Given that I am willing to modify and sacrifice any old pumps I have,
I rigged up a motor drive to an old PS pump and filled it up with WVO
with the outlet connected to the inlet. It was only running at about
100 rpm but nothing at all happened. It did not prime or circulate.
Thinking I had a broken pump I tried another with the same result.
Both these pumps were working when I took them off old engines and I
wonder why this should be. I assume that looking from the "front" the
pump will rotate clockwise. ( I did reverse the rotation of the
motor, but it did not change anything.) The oil is obviously a bit
thicker than Auto transmission fluid, but I thought it would pump in
the end, if only for a short while. I assume that these pumps are gear
type and if I could get the pulley off, (does it just pull off?) I
would get it apart to see what is happening.


Can any one explain this and suggest the best way to cheaply pump veg.
oil

Thanks for any suggestions George.
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Steve
 2008-05-21 10:21:29
 Re: Power steering / engine oil pumps use for waste oil.
George wrote:
> Having owned and maitained about 20, mostly GM cars in the 70 - 90 era
> I have a lot of old power steering and engine oil pumps. Now I need
> to pump waste vegetable oil through a de-watering and particulate (3
> micron) filter to a storage tank. I have looked at the price of a
> commercial item and am horrified. It needs quite a small flow at
> about 50 psi.
>
> I have looked at engine oil pumps and they have a pressure relief
> valve that just releases into the sump. I was thinking of putting a
> much heavier spring in so it will not operate, but the PS pumps do not
> have this problem.

Or you could completely disable the relief valve by putting a solid
piece of bar stock in the space where the spring normally goes...
>
> Given that I am willing to modify and sacrifice any old pumps I have,
> I rigged up a motor drive to an old PS pump and filled it up with WVO
> with the outlet connected to the inlet. It was only running at about
> 100 rpm but nothing at all happened. It did not prime or circulate.
> Thinking I had a broken pump I tried another with the same result.


GM/Saginaw power steering pumps are vane-type pumps, and the vanes are
held in contact with the outer pump housing by centrifugal force. When
operated at low RPM, the vanes never "fling" out and seat against the
housing, so the pump does nothing. At a certain RPM, the vanes will pop
out and the pump will begin pumping. 100 RPM, is barely over 1 turn per
second- WAY too slow.

>
> Can any one explain this and suggest the best way to cheaply pump veg.
> oil
>
> Thanks for any suggestions George.
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 George
 2008-05-21 09:20:36
 Re: Power steering / engine oil pumps use for waste oil.
On May 21, 4:21 pm, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
> George wrote:
> > Having owned and maitained about 20, mostly GM cars in the 70 - 90 era
> > I have a lot of old power steering and engine oil pumps.  Now I need
> > to pump waste vegetable oil through a de-watering and particulate (3
> > micron) filter to a storage tank. I have looked at the price of a
> > commercial item and am horrified.  It needs quite a small flow at
> > about 50 psi.
>
> > I have looked at engine oil pumps and they have a pressure relief
> > valve that just releases into the sump. I was thinking of putting a
> > much heavier spring in so it will not operate, but the PS pumps do not
> > have this problem.
>
> Or you could completely disable the relief valve by putting a solid
> piece of bar stock in the space where the spring normally goes...
>
>
>
> > Given that I am willing to modify and sacrifice any old pumps I have,
> > I rigged up a motor drive to an old PS pump and filled it up with WVO
> > with the outlet connected to the inlet.  It was only running at about
> > 100 rpm but nothing at all happened.  It did not prime or circulate.
> > Thinking I had a broken pump I tried another with the same result.
>
> GM/Saginaw power steering pumps are vane-type pumps, and the vanes are
> held in contact with the outer pump housing by centrifugal force. When
> operated at low RPM, the vanes never "fling" out and seat against the
> housing, so the pump does nothing. At a certain RPM, the vanes will pop
> out and the pump will begin pumping. 100 RPM, is barely over 1 turn per
> second- WAY too slow.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Can any one explain this and suggest the best way to cheaply pump veg.
> > oil
>
> > Thanks for any suggestions  George.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks Steve, that certainly explains why it does not pump. So I
suppose I should have more like 1000 rpm to make them energise. That
is a pity as I don't need a high flow and I didn't want to use a high
power electric motor, to get it up to that speed I will need at least
1 hp I reckon. I would still like to get the pulley off!

I think I shall go back to the old engine oil one - at least that is
going to pump from very low rpm. I can make a coupling and direct
drive it.

I am still a bit concerned about leakage, though, if this leaks a bit
from anywhere into the sump, it is not a big problem, but if it starts
dripping waste oil all over the place - it's really not so good.

The best way is to lash it up and try it.

Thank again, regards, George.
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Scott Dorsey
 2008-05-21 13:45:50
 Re: Power steering / engine oil pumps use for waste oil.
George <[email protected]> wrote:
>Thanks Steve, that certainly explains why it does not pump. So I
>suppose I should have more like 1000 rpm to make them energise. That
>is a pity as I don't need a high flow and I didn't want to use a high
>power electric motor, to get it up to that speed I will need at least
>1 hp I reckon. I would still like to get the pulley off!

Nahh, you can get it up to high speed without a lot of torque. Get that
pulley off, put a bigger one on, and drive it with the pulley!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 George
 2008-05-21 11:10:05
 Re: Power steering / engine oil pumps use for waste oil.
On May 21, 6:45 pm, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> George  <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Thanks Steve, that certainly explains why it does not pump. So I
> >suppose I should have more like 1000 rpm to make them energise.  That
> >is a pity as I don't need a high flow and I didn't want to use a high
> >power electric motor, to get it up to that speed I will need at least
> >1 hp I reckon.  I would still like to get the pulley off!
>
> Nahh, you can get it up to high speed without a lot of torque.  Get that
> pulley off, put a bigger one on, and drive it with the pulley!
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I may try that as it is already all connected, but it is only 1/4 hp
and it will be driving the oil through a very fine filter, I still
think it will prove to be too much of a load. I chose the smallest
pulley on the motor I could find because I didn't want a big flow. I
shall let you know if it works after I try it tomorrow, it's
dinnertime here in UK now.

Do you think there are any seals which will not like veggie oil?

Thanks George. Diesel up to six pounds a gallon now! That is about
12 US$.
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 dennnischu@gmail.com
 2008-05-21 17:03:26
 Re: Power steering / engine oil pumps use for waste oil.
On May 21, 11:10 am, George <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 21, 6:45 pm, [email protected] (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
> > George  <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >Thanks Steve, that certainly explains why it does not pump. So I
> > >suppose I should have more like 1000 rpm to make them energise.  That
> > >is a pity as I don't need a high flow and I didn't want to use a high
> > >power electric motor, to get it up to that speed I will need at least
> > >1 hp I reckon.  I would still like to get the pulley off!
>
> > Nahh, you can get it up to high speed without a lot of torque.  Get that
> > pulley off, put a bigger one on, and drive it with the pulley!
> > --scott
> > --
> > "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
> I may try that as it is already all connected, but it is only 1/4 hp
> and it will be driving the oil through a very fine filter,  I still
> think it will prove to be too much of a load. I chose the smallest
> pulley on the motor I could find because I didn't want a big flow. I
> shall let you know if it works after I try it tomorrow, it's
> dinnertime here in UK now.
>
> Do you think there are any seals which will not like veggie oil?
>
> Thanks George.    Diesel up to six pounds a gallon now!  That is about
> 12 US$.

that's a lot of money!
Author:
Date:
Subject:
 Mortimer
 2008-05-22 12:09:02
 Re: Power steering / engine oil pumps use for waste oil.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f0941bc2-c352-4eaf-887c-ee437da9673f@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> Diesel up to six pounds a gallon now! That is about 12 US$.

that's a lot of money!

===

Yes the cost of petrol and diesel (diesel especially) is going up on a day
by day basis. The highest I've seen near me is Ł1.30/litre for diesel which
is Ł5.91/UK gallon or Ł4.72/US gallon. Using today's exchange rate of
Ł1=$1.88, that's 4.72*1.88 = $8.88. Not quite as much as the OP said - he
forgot to convert UK to US gallons and assumed Ł1=$2 exchange rate - but
it's still a lot of money. Make us jealous in the UK - how much are gas and
diesel in the US, typically, these days?